The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

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The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Thingy on Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:46 am

The president of the Czech Republic has signed the treaty of lisbon, which was the last thing needed to ratify it. What do you guys think?
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by emmy on Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:39 am

czech mthrf...

he should never had.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Thingy on Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:34 pm

I dont really know alot about the treaty, mostly because i havent cared about it till now. What's so bad with having it ratified?
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Shemuel on Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:34 pm

Because the EU will have even more powers over individual coutries - setting up of EU 'embassies', the ability to sign treaties, etc.

I agree that the EU needed restructuring. But not enlarging.

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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by JPB18 on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:17 pm

I believe that it would contribute for a stronguer unification of the union, and maybe one day, we can be actually the stronguer set of powers in the entire world...

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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Shemuel on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:14 pm

But do you want to lose some of your national independence? In wales at least, the general drive is to try and get more independence, so this stuff seems alien.

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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by SilverShadows on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:52 pm

what all the lisbon treaty is really about is getting a president of europe and generally making it easier for them to do stuff thats all it really doesnt affect daily life a great amount also one more country dtill has to ratify it i think before it comes in [poland or somewhere, maybe not i cant really remember what my politics teacher said] but basically its just about making tony blair european president so that he can annoy gordon brown
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by emmy on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:53 pm

i agree. centralization is not necessarily a good thing, especially not of it also consists of more bureaucracy.

besides that, there´s one big problem± the EU is NOT, and will never be, a sovereign state. therefore, it can´t have a constitution, nor embassies, nor a president. which is exactly the whole point Lisbon is trying to reach.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by SilverShadows on Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:59 pm

no the eu has soveriegnty over all its member states for example the smoking ban we couldnt do anything to change that law which was made in brussel therefore th eu has soveriegnty over us because our parliment cannot amend or change that law similarly with things like fishing quota's the govt doesnt like but they cant do anything bout it cos the eu has soveriegnty the only way to regain parliment as the highest law making body is to leave the eu
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Thingy on Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:06 pm

Well i do see the problem with national independence... I'd rather see our own government make the most important decisions than a bunch of guys on the other side of Europe who want to see their own country get more of the cake than the rest of the union.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by SilverShadows on Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:09 pm

well that is the main arguement for this but the member states still remain a bit more devolved than say scotland which has its own parliment and budget and stuff so were not like completely under there control the eu just has the power to override laws made in our countries
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by emmy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:34 am

actually, no they don´t have that power. your government can easily ignore the smoking ban if they want to. the fishing quotas lie differently because they concern waters that all eu countries use.

also, josh, you´re mistaken on sovereignty. a sovereign state is one which has it´s own laws, government, and is recognized as one country, undisputed, by all countries. that´s why the EU and taiwan aren´t sovereign states. taiwan has an own government, it has it´s own laws, yes, but it is not internationally recognized (by china)
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by SilverShadows on Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:49 pm

what states dont have to be recognised by others to be sovereign that is the single stupidest concept in the world so what your saying if we chose to say australia isnt a country by not recognising it as one it automatically would be one. no thats not how it works it you have control of the country and you are supreme law making body you are a sovereign state. if you are part of an empire ie your laws are made by someone else you are not simple. taiwan makes it only laws therefore its is sovereign it doesnt matter it china doesnt recognise it.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Thingy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:37 pm

You actually only need the majority of the countries in the world to recognize you as a sovereign state to be one. Which is why israel is considered a sovereign state even if all the arab nations keep trying to make it dissapear by saying it doesnt exist.

And the UK would have a serious diplomatic crisis if they suddenly decided to say that australia isnt a sovereign nation. Which is why they dont.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by SilverShadows on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:56 pm

no i was just making a point as he said taiwan wasnt a sovereign state just because of china
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by emmy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:27 pm

woah, i just made an omission, i forgot to say that's because china has the power of veto in the UN. so, the UN can't accept taiwan as a sovereign state by their definitions and taiwan cannot become member of the UN. since the UN encompasses about 90% of the world...

also, i would greatly appreciate it if you'd use interpunction.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by SilverShadows on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:49 pm

what just because the UN doesnt accept it doesnt make in soveriegn the UN doesnt decide that the un is a peace keeping and humanitarian organisation, it really has very little say in whether a country is soveriegn. to put my point bluntly you dont need the Un to say you are soverign to be sovereign
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Thingy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:58 pm

Well, i dont think the EU would have any problems getting recognized as a sovereign state by the UN. It would be far too important for the economies of the rest of the world.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by emmy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:04 pm

the trouble is that the UN makes up 90% of the world, dear sir, and more than 99% of the political, military and economical power. sure, you can call yourself sovereign, but that won't help you a lot. otherwise there would be twice as much countries in the world as there are. reality says that there ain't, so who is right?

reality - utopia: 1-0

thingy: would you accept that happening?
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Thingy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:22 pm

Wouldnt really be like i had a choice. But yes. It will probably start out with people still trying to get more benefits for their region (country) at the expense of other regions, but it's likely that it would get better with time. And it would improve Europe's economy, security and political influence in the world.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by SilverShadows on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:30 pm

exactly meaning more countries like turkey can actually join europe without there applications being vetoed by memebr states who dont like them
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Thingy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:32 pm

I think the regions would get more say than that... It's not like the president will be able to decide who gets into the union and who doesnt all by himself anyways.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by SilverShadows on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:36 pm

no no no thats not what i meant, one part of the treaty was that member states gave up the right to veto the entrance of new states
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by emmy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:37 pm

Thingy wrote:Wouldnt really be like i had a choice.
ehm... yes you have. you and every last million people in your country do have a choice. after all, it's a democracy

Josh wrote:exactly meaning more countries like turkey can actually join europe without there applications being vetoed by memebr states who dont like them
which is exactly what not a SINGLE EU inhabitant wants. so, hurray for veto!
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

Post by Thingy on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:40 pm

Well, yes, but i wouldnt have a choice as an individual as my vote is only one of millions.
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Re: The Treaty of Lisbon has been ratified

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